Thats a shame Curtains. I have to admit though your recent reply was disappointing I expected more depth from you than just buying into gudrulz "Bible for beginners" explanations that tries to show scriptures can cancel out each other out, when all scripture is written for our instruction and understanding. I enjoyed the chance to debate with you though.
Concerned JW
JoinedPosts by Concerned JW
-
48
religion only to do with belief?
by Curtains inas jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.
are other like religions like this also?
do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.
-
-
-
48
religion only to do with belief?
by Curtains inas jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.
are other like religions like this also?
do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.
-
-
Concerned JW
I do have a kingdom interlinear and various bible translations and none of them say that in 1 cor 13:10. To quote the interlinear directly "Whenever but should come the perfect(thing) the (thing)out of part will be made ineffective."
We have 3 scriptures 1 cor 13: 8,9 and 10. 8 references the ceasing of prophecying, tongues and knowledge as full gifts. Then importantly we have 9 which shows an emergence of partial remaining gifts but no mention of tongues. Then we have verse 10 which is the one under discussion which directly quotes 9 and the "Part" gifts being the ones that end when perfection comes and no reference to verse 8 or tongues. But for further clarity and confirmation you goto 1 cor 13: 12 "at present I know partially" 1 cor 13 :13 GI "Now but is remaining faith, hope, love" of which the greatest is love. Paul is clarifying here what they now have remaining is faith hope and love. But for something to remain something has to end! So what has ended? The gifts! Your argument falls at this. Because you are saying everything continues fully until perfection ends them, so Paul is lying and nothing has ended for there to be remaining faith, hope and love.
And before you say it verse 13 is not talking about after attaining perfection because faith and hope will not exist then! Both are only needed before we become perfect which is when our faith is justified and our hope fulfilled therefore they end with perfection but love we will always have even after perfection.
You are pretending 1cor 13: verse 9 doesn't exist and are tying verse 8 and verse 10 together. This also begs the question why would Paul even go into all this explanation? if we simply have full gifts right up until perfection is attained? why do we need to be told the gifts will cease? We wouldn't need the gifts when we are perfect. Paul felt we needed to know this information and that we also needed reasuring we still have faith, hope and love remaining. So why is he reasuring us? because we lose the full gifts (including tongues)! that can be the only logical explanation.
We know at some point in that time period the gifts ended and probably completely with the last Apostles death. Certainly until the recent spate of claimed gifts by new-age, pentacostal, christian religions history shows a distinct lack of these gifts throughout the centuries. So we know now the full gifts where only meant for a small period of time in the early "baby" "childhood" days of early Christianity. As part of their birth as a faith and so with increased bible knowledge, understanding, maturity under Jehovah guidance and the remaining faith hope and love they didn't need these gifts. Showing also that mature christians now don't need those sort of eye-opening gifts to strengthen their belief.
-
63
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek inaccording to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?
-
-
Concerned JW
You have yet to establish why reading the book is relevent to this discussion? Like I said earlier I am pretty sure Steve Hassan did not mean for it to be used as a "How to spot a Cult" book or a "How to read your religion into a Cult" book. but to be used with already established Cults. I will discuss Steve Hassan's book when you establish that witnesses are a Cult but you can't because they are in fact an established Religion.
Please answer why you asked me if I read it? and why would you think I need to read it?
-
160
I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses
by PenelopePaige inhi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.
but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.
i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.
-
-
Concerned JW
There are numerous explanations for near death experiences some physical like hallucinations due to oxygen starvation and others like the one you mentioned. Jesus himself said about a little girl and for lazarus that they were both "asleep" in death which doesn't support the separating soul viewpoint. I personally would lean towards the hallucination/dreaming explanation because of the basic fact that you aren't dead just "near dead" which means your brain is still active and sending messages and since the woman was in that building, had the shoe registered in her unconscous mind and it came back to it in the hallucination? When I dream I am one of those people that can fly sometimes and I have vivid dreams of places I know but certain things are picked out more than others. you focus on a table or a picture and then the dream jumps to another area. So I'm afraid I lean towards there being a mundane explanation for it. I hope you don't mind?
-
160
I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses
by PenelopePaige inhi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.
but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.
i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.
-
-
Concerned JW
Penelope you really seem genuine in your thoughts especially on the point of paradise. It is a biblical word Jesus himself uses. It's connection with earth is drawn from the promises for the earth in the bible from Eden in Genesis right through to Isaiah and Jesus's own words when he says "the meek will inherit the earth" it is quite an interesting biblical topic when you look into it.
-
160
I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses
by PenelopePaige inhi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.
but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.
i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.
-
-
Concerned JW
Jwfacts why would believing in "one true religion" be a fundemental error? is your point based on the fact you personally think that there can be many true religions? or there can be no true religions? It is the bible that sets the parameter that the true religion must preach (word of mouth) "to the entire inhabited earth" are you saying that is impossible for any religion to do?
-
63
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek inaccording to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?
-
-
Concerned JW
Is this where I am supposed to fall into the trap of answering a question that by answering it would mean I accept that Steve Hassan's book which doesn't mention Witnesses applies to them in anyway? It is a book about "Cults" not established Religions! First you have to establish Jehovah's witnesses are a cult!
I also think it has been quite adequately shown that the usage of "Cult" is too perjorative a term to be used without bias. Especially as Witnesses are an established and recognised religion.
I'm also fairly certain Steve Hassan didn't mean for his book to become a "How to identify (read your religion into) a cult" book. But to be used with already well established "Cults".
-
160
I'm new here..... Studying with the Witnesses
by PenelopePaige inhi- i just wanted to say that i have been checking the website out for a few weeks and have read some horror stories and some sad ones.
but i have been studying with witnessess for about six months and can't help but feel that they're completely sincere and maybe even, the true religion.
i love the watchtower and awake and to me, none of that seems crazy.
-
-
Concerned JW
penelopePaige I hope you don't mind but I would like to reply to Partydelights who brings up some valid points I would like to address.
Partydelights I sympathise for your time in prison and applaud your honest hearted stance on biblical neutrality about not being "part of the world" while submitting to the authority of it's rulers. But can I say that however many times someone has read the bible cover to cover, it isn't an adequate qualification biblically. The biblical principle of the Eunuch and Philip shows this. When the eunuch himself acknowledges that the bible needs explaining despite clearly reading it and knowing it himself. This is the the principle that there has to be biblical insight when understanding scripture. This would explain why hundred's of religions use the bible but still have unbiblical beliefs like trinity, hellfire, immortallity of the soul in their doctrines.
The usage of the Apostles and Jesus as intepretors of the bible give lie to your words that special insight isn't given to certain groups biblically. The bible also sets down the qualification for gaining insight and it requires prayer, being a united group, asking for spirit guidance, asking Jehovah our father specifically through his son and yes looking to the bible for explanation as well. I think you would have to back up your assumption that knowledge is gained by simply reading the bible from cover to cover.
I am trying to understand why you are saying the basis for an annointed group to be kings and priests in heaven, 144,000 heirs with Jesus rests on just one scripture in Gal. From my personal knowledge alone it is based on a vast number of scriptures which if you then try and say either "we are all annointed" or "we are all not annointed" they unravel horribly and mean you have to cut out masses of scriptures to sustain that point. The specific usage of the name "discreet/faithful slave" is a direct quote from a parable of Jesus's which for me is very relevent showing that there will be shepherds right until Jesus returns who will look after the flock. The argument that the flock is shepherdless until Jesus returns is a massive contradiction to the bible.
Bible prophecy is meant to be used but I've read nowhere in the bible that intepreting prophecy fulfillment would be a perfect science. It is like saying the Jews couldn't be God's people because they failed to interpret biblical prophecy on the Messiah correctly. Not getting biblical prophecy fulfillment right is a really, really weak premise to condemn any religion on? I'm frankly surprised you even use it considering how well read on the bible you are?
This is where the perfection point comes into it. It is not that defenders of the witnesses are saying we are imperfect as an excuse but that attackers against witnesses have an unrealistic expectation of perfection! They expect perfect understanding, a mistake-free religion, perfect understanding of biblical prophecy fullfillment, perfect administration, perfect mistake-free shepherds, a religion that perfectly agrees with their own opinions. This is a very unrealistic expectation which is bound to crumble when faced with the feet of clay which is the reality of imperfection. And what is more important is that the bible does not say the congregation will be perfect, far from it but what qualifies us biblically is our adherence and faith in Jehovah and his word despite our imperfection as his people.
-
63
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek inaccording to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?
-
-
Concerned JW
I'm not sure what that has to do with my point leagingwt? Are you saying Steve Hassan personally thinks all religions are cults but divides them into harmful and harmless? Steve Hassan obviously has put a lot into this subject but his books are only indicative of his opinion on what being a cult means and I think he doesn't even mention witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses are read into his books by those that have a personal interest in classing them as a cult.
-
63
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek inaccording to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?
-
-
Concerned JW
Rocky girl last time I look jews were a religion! My point simply was that Steve Hassan clearly doesn't consider jews a cult therefore he obviously doesn't consider all religions cults and so has a defining line of what religions he considered cults or not. But this is beside the point that "Cult" when applied to religions is usually used from a personal dislike of a particular religion or people that have a vested interest in playing down other religions against their own religion (this point to discreetslave that thinks a Baptist neighbour is an unbiased authority on whether Jehovah's witnesses are a cult or not)
Since "Cult" is mainly used as a derogative/perjorative term it is as Band on the Run points useless to be used in any objective sense. It is a term used for mud slinging and name calling. I think it's usage shows a lack of objectivity in those using it in a perjorative sense.
Discreetslave I lock my door and goto work everyday are these ritualistic practises? I think maybe you should check a dictionary definition on ritualistic religious practises. Practical adminitrative tools are not ritualistic practises simply by virtue of being done repetitively.